Feministe highlight reel, with special threadjack. The threadjack helps us understand the dynamics of the whiny wimpy chicks or whatever they call themselves.

I hate the whole put on a burqa thing, so I'm quoting one to show it exists. Also, how come modesty obsessors never tell men not to wear suits? Suits are hot and lead to self abuse.

Why doesn’t he just tell us to put on a fragging burqua? Completely hide any semblance of a female form - or for that matter human form - from view.

and why is it always women who are told to be modest but men aren’t told the same?

About the Orthodox Feminist Alliance:

This is the wackiest form of feminism I’ve ever seen! I don’t see any actual advocacy for women’s rights anywhere, all I see is explanations about how the home is really important and how women are good at home-centric tasks like pleasing their husbands

Yuck!

Out of the many fucked-up threads in The Attic, one of the ones that most stands out in my mind was a discussion of whether standards of modesty still applied around the girls’ own family members. The consensus was that coming down to the breakfast table in your pajamas might tempt your brothers to rape you. Very, very sad.

#44, we get to the first comment about how the meaaaaan feminists are oppressing us, courtesy of Natialia:

Also, and this is something that I’ve been thinking about as of late - it’s interesting how some of these ah, lovely boys’ (not men, dammit) arguments are similar to certain feminist arguments, i.e., if you’ve put on some lipstick and a tank top - you are doing it for men, and you are a fool, or worse. The motivation, I believe, is different, but there’s something to this, no?

Elinor tries to straighten things out:

No, I don’t think there is.

While I personally am quite fond of lipstick and tank tops, I’m really offended by the notion that motivation doesn’t matter. And the number of feminist women who’ve actually given me crap for the way I look, as opposed to pointing out the misogynist nature of the beauty industry, is, hmm, zero.

It doesn’t make sense to decide the feminist agenda by playing Opposites Day with the religious right agenda.

I'm not *fond* of lipstick or tank tops, but I have some, due to the fact that when I go to the appropriately gendered section of the store, choose my size, and then choose for aesthetics, effects on others(will people think this is fashionable? is it figure flattering?) and weather proofing, some of the selected items are tank tops. I also receive gifts from people who live in cultures.

Ugly in Pink has a stronger reaction:

Oh pfft. All I see from the hairy armpit androgynous feminists (of which I am one) is to examine your choices and not just make the knee-jerk defensive rationalization that you’re wearing those three inch heels solely for yourself to celebrate your wonderful empowerful womanliness, or something. I think there’s a great difference in saying (as these people are) dress for men’s whims or we’ll treat you like dirt, and saying maybe give a second thought as to who you’re dressing for and why, because shouldn’t it be mostly for yourself?

I'm androgynous too! Woooot!!! But I also had one of these childhood things, and so I wear lipstick to appear acceptably 'made up'.

Elinor tries to stake out a middle ground:
Frankly I don’t see a problem with occasionally dressing for the menz. I’m attracted to men. I want men to be attracted to me; of course, naive little tart that I am, I think it’s possible for a man to think “nice person” and “nice body” at the same time.

I don’t know why it’s necessary to get so defensive about the notion that you might be dressing to get a reaction from other people — unless you pick your clothes in the dark out of a closet stocked by somebody else, that’s what you’re doing.

There are people out there telling us we have to wear sexy clothes (or we’re unattractive), as many if not more than are telling us we can’t wear them. You’re making it sound as if tank tops, lipstick, push-up bras and high heels arrive in the stores without any fanfare, or maybe just drop out of the sky, who knows.

I'm reading a book, Mississippi Sissy, and it seems that the child's (in the South, we all have childhoods!) relatives are socializing him for a masculine role.

Natalia replies to Elinor:

’m going to assume you weren’t wearing a “Who Needs A Brain When You Have These?” t-shirt…

I don’t really dress provocatively either way.

I’m sorry some self-described feminist women were mean to you.

It happens. I can’t say I’ve never been mean to anyone because of their appearance - I can be quite the bitch - but I sort of figured things out by the time I left my teenage years behind (or so I like to think). When adult women do this, especially adult women who have power over you, it can get disconcerting.

Elinor continues sensibly:
For sure. And I don’t think that trashing another woman for the way she dresses is a properly feminist thing to do. (Which is not to say I wouldn’t be seriously pissed off at a woman in a “Who Needs A Brain When You Have These?” T-shirt, because I totally would.) But I think it’s important for feminists to be able to criticize the fashion and beauty industries. A lot of the clothes that make it difficult for you to do the housework and play with toddlers, as God intended, can also make it difficult for you to walk more than a few blocks, can harm your feet and back, can consume time and energy and money that you might want to spend elsewhere, etc.

As a feminist, I'm totally cool with 'tearing down women' if it's stuff like saying that Marie Anotoinette was not the best feminist movie EVER or that while jilling off is fun it's not exactly feminist revolution.

Ginmar posts twice:

It’s a strawfeminist. Heard it a million times. “OMG, feminists were mean to me because I LOVE men AND lipstick and…..” Dude, I got mugged by a black guy once. Doesn’t make me hate black guys, it makes me hate MUGGERS. That’s assuming that there are feminists out there acting like, you know, strawfeminists do. According to their alleged victims, strawfeminists go around kicking puppies with their combat boots covering their hairy legs, spitting on babies and beating up men and housewives. They also have bonfires of books, pretty dresses, and makeup. I’ve been a feminist for twenty years and I’ve never seen one or heard this sentiment first hand; it’s always second hand.

Only the best one was selected.

Jill writes a long post, here is an excerpt:

I think it can be really difficult to talk about things like beauty and raunch culture without blaming women, or sounding like you’re blaming women. I think there are some feminists who fall into the trap of deriding girls instead of Girls Gone Wild culture. But for the most part, most feminists are critiquing the broader social structures which create mandatory beauty culture and which tie female-ness to the trappings of femininity. But for a lot of women, hearing a criticism of make-up or high heels can sound a lot like a criticism of them, even if it’s not necessarily intended that way.

The whole criticizing makeup and high heels is criticizing me viewpoint that some have confuses me. I'm wearing shorts. If someone doesn't like shorts, what does that have to do with me?

BMC confuses me:
Jill, I make zero apology for any gender normative behavior I choose to engage in. This is the hand I have been dealt and learend to cope with for nearly 4 decades, and I would find it deeply uncomforable to have to wake up tomorrow and have to act the way men are socialized to act, or just reject all gender . I just don’t sit at the back of the bus, accept less pay for the same work, do more than half of the domestic chores, allow others to make decisions about my own health, or tolerate anyone treating other women that way. I think that’s a pretty tall order without worrying about whether St. Peter will let you into the feminist section of heaven for having worn eye shadow.

Huh? I don't get where Jill said she had to reject gender or act like a man. I find it easier personally to just act like myself and throw overly confining gender stereotypes over the wall.

Natalia speaks again:

What I’ve encountered wasn’t plain meanness - it was an exercise in power, in questioning my abilities, and in a workplace environment no less. It wasn’t a feminist pow-wow where I showed up wearing heels and the other women didn’t. It was a whole lot closer to home, and a whole lot more pointed and specific.

I personally don’t believe in a warm and fuzzy and diverse “sisterhood” that can bridge all divides and empower all. I have my way of doing things, and other people have theirs. I don’t apologize, and neither should they. But if an accomplished older woman is going to threaten me professionally because I’ve a predilection for the colour pink and whatnot, or, in a different scenario, practically pat me on the head and tell me what a “victim” I am - I am not going to trust that woman, like I wouldn’t trust a man who says that I am a “victim” (of my own wanton sexual nature, of course) because I generally don’t conform to HIS standards of appropriate dress.

We're sad that your boss is a jerk, but don't take it out on everyone else.

Nausicaa uses a psychological argument:



The “accomplished older woman” might be (in part) projecting — she may have come up in an era where she felt she had to scrupulously protect a nonsexualized image in the workplace in order to be taken seriously. And she might be jealous and angry that you don’t have the same hurdles to face. And, like it or not, she may also be giving you advice that’s still relevant in today’s workplace — a sexualized or girlish image, expressed through clothing or doing things like baking cookies for the office, just isn’t good for career advancement.

Then again, she may just have an Althouse-like boob obsession.

Thank you!

So a woman you worked with was an asshole and this extrapolates to “feminist arguments” that lipstick is inherently bad - how, exactly?

Natalie, I do think feminist critiques of the beauty industry require a certain sensitivity (whilst not relinquishing their critical power), and I hate people who jump on women for performing aspects of stereotypical (white, middle-class) femininity without any knowledge of the woman they’re heaping shit on. But I think better of feminism than to label such behaviour as ‘feminist’. As far as I’m concerned it’s decidedly unfeminist behaviour, because part of feminism is eradicating the kind of culture that rewards us for tearing the crap out of each other and enacting the catfight rubric

Natalia responds:

Ah, but mine is an “ethnic-flavoured,” Ukrainian, insidious femininity… Or so I’m told.


But I think better of feminism than to label such behaviour as ‘feminist’.

I think feminists are very diverse. I don’t think we should all be required to get along. Should we? I mean, I’m open to any idea here, honestly, because all of this is very dynamic. And I did point out that this behaviour is not representative of feminism as a whole - but certain strands of feminism. But where I’m living now - said “strands” are dominating the landscape.

Oh, and it’s Natalia. Not Natalie… It’s a pet-peeve of mine. :-)

LOL, Ukrainian not white. What's next? I hope this isn't the same place where black people have all the jobs, women are always lying about child support, and hamburgers eat people.

Now this threadjack gives us an interesting idea of modern feminism at the crossroads. The thread is originally about a bunch of weirdos and a poll about modest dress among women. The thread is jacked into criticizing all of feminism over the actions, that may or may not have happened, of one or at least less than ten women. It's not gender triumphs race, it's your asshole boss triumphs organized religion, the state, and the capitalist economy.