Arguments on the internet!

Mnem has a bone to pick:

Okay, I tried to read the links, but I was so annoyed by the reference to “Sofia Coppola Feminism” and the complete misreading of Marie Antoinette (hint: she really didn’t say “Let them eat cake,” and the movie wasn’t about her being a pure and innocent soul) that I can’t take the rest of what they say seriously. Sorry.

I liked the costumes in Marie Antoinette, but it wasn't exactly a groundbreaking work of feminism.

Then Mnem continues to pick at a bone:



Mnemosyne, I’m wondering who the pronoun “they” in your comment refers to?

“They” would be Donna at The Silence of Our Friends and BlackAmazon at Having Read the Fine Print (who I linked to through Donna).

I know it’s oh-so-fashionable to hate Sofia Coppola because she’s privileged young white woman who makes movies, but, really, haven’t we had enough of tearing other women down because they’ve had more advantages than we have? (And I include myself in that “we” who hasn’t had nearly as many advantages. I’ve had a lot, and I know it, but I’m not at the Coppola level.)

Also, both of the above writers seem to be under the impression that the lead character of a film is always supposed to be admired and is always the hero/heroine. You’re not supposed to like the Scarlett Johanssen character in Lost in Translation. She’s shallow and mildly xenophobic, and she’s whiny about it. Anyone who doesn’t understand that doesn’t understand film very well.

(Disclaimer: I have two film degrees, so it drives me batty to have people who don’t understand basic things about film complaining about them. Yes, the guys in The Virgin Suicides don’t understand the girls and have foolish illusions that they can save them. THAT’S THE FUCKING POINT!)

This sort of thing is why I'm against feminism is about supporting women. Just because someone has labia doesn't mean that people can't wonder about the classist subtexts in their movies. Also you don't need a film degree to understand movies I say.

I try to argue because I am argumentative:

Mnem, I think my classismometer is blinking towards you. Is it you that’s got it going off? Sometimes we have false positives, but then again, do you really need a film degree to understand a movie? And maybe there are multiple interpretations or something? Anyone? Bueller

I am from a privileged background myself so I can't tell but I try to follow along from what poor people tell me is classist.


Mnem continues to talk:
Mnem, I think my classismometer is blinking towards you. Is it you that’s got it going off?

I get that a lot when I try to explain to people that Sofia Coppola is not automatically a bad filmmaker or a bad person because she’s from an upper-class family. Somehow, the same people who get all upset about all of the advantages that she had never get quite as upset when we’re talking about Rob Reiner or Joss Whedon, who had just as many (if not more) advantages as Coppola did. Something about her being a woman director really pushed people’s buttons.

Sometimes we have false positives, but then again, do you really need a film degree to understand a movie?

Not necessarily, but it helps you realize when people are making a bullshit argument and trying to illustrate it with stuff that’s not there except in their own preconceptions about the filmmaker.

If you want to argue that Coppola is a bad filmmaker, that’s fine. If you think her art is shallow, that’s your opinion. If you want to say that she’s a bad filmmaker and her art is shallow because she had a privileged upbringing, there’s a lot of classism there. And claiming that she’s representative of “Sofia Coppola Feminism” because you don’t like her art is heading towards crazytown.

I think we’re back at that old bugaboo of “If that liberal/feminist doesn’t talk about the exact thing that’s important to me, they’re not just uninteresting or a bad artist, s/he is a bad person, too.”
# 45 Mnemosyne Mar 20th, 2007 at 11:31 pm

Sorry, I meant to link: “Sofia Coppola Feminism”.

It’s the naming a movement after someone who doesn’t pretend to represent feminism that bugs me. It’s like calling it “Tom Cruise Feminism” or “Brad Pitt Feminism.” It’s meaningless, except in what you’re assuming the person must be like from having read articles about them in Vogue.


I don't believe that reverse classism exists. I mean, would I rather have people think I don't deserve food or healthcare or have people think I'm not a good feminist film maker, and yea, I'm saying the latter. And when did she say she was a feminist anyway.

Kai tries to get us back on the matter at hand:


Just to be clear here, none of the posts that Ilyka linked to were about filmmakers or filmmaking. I happen to like Ms. Coppola’s flicks but I can’t see the relevance. We were trying to focus on illegal raids and human rights violations against women and children of color taking place right now in the US. Oh well. As usual, different priorities prevail.

Mnem whines for like three more posts:



Mnem, I have to say that it is extremely annoying that almost all film directors come from wealthy, privileged backgrounds.

It is annoying. The only person I know who got a writing job right out of film school (master’s program) was someone who was living at home with her parents in Brentwood, which meant that she was able to intern for free for an entire year for the TV show that eventually hired her. (Plus she also married a very successful musician from a band I know you’ve heard of.) Hell, some famous directors have stooped to accepting bribes from aspiring filmmakers.

I would have liked to do that kind of internship, but I needed a day job, which means I probably will never sell a screenplay because I can’t devote the amount of time to selling it that I would need to do. (I don’t mean writing it — I mean taking meetings, meeting people, etc.) My husband also graduated from film school, but getting a film job would have meant having his own car (with his own insurance) to drive at a minimum wage job for two years until they decided he was trustworthy and could maybe start doing small film-related jobs and get him in the union two years after that. And he just didn’t have the money for that — he needed to start working right away so he could pay back his loans.

And, frankly, I think it’s bad for film and TV that such a small class of people is doing all of the writing and making all of the films. Some people do at least try to examine their class privilege, but a lot of them don’t even try.

But, again, I don’t understand why all of this is Sofia Coppola’s fault and not, say, Penny Marshall’s fault. I think she’s become a convenient symbol for people who want to deny that she has talent (she’s overhyped, but she does have talent) so they can make their own points about the problems with the class system in Hollywood.

Which means that, once again, a woman is getting blamed for taking advantage of something that men take advantage of hundreds of times more and never get blamed for even once.

Are you starting to see why it annoys me so much?
# 50 Mnemosyne Mar 21st, 2007 at 1:24 am

Just to be clear here, none of the posts that Ilyka linked to were about filmmakers or filmmaking.

No, but Donna (who was linked to) referenced “Sofia Coppola Feminism” in her very first sentence and talked about how Coppola represents particular feminist type, which irritated me. That’s how we got on the subject.

Yes, it’s not very important in the grand scheme of saving the world, but that’s kinda how comments go sometimes.
# 51 Mnemosyne Mar 21st, 2007 at 1:30 am

I should say, my ginormous comment that will probably be in moderation until tomorrow is all about the class privilege inherent in the entertainment industry that people don’t even think about. So it’s kinda-sorta on topic, if the topic is the class stratification that’s invisible to most people.



Uh..I think that the class stratification in having your human rights violated is different from how I don't get to drive a BMW, I just have to drive dad's old Nissan.

Ilyka works hard to get us back on track:

Gotcha. Concerns about Blackamazon’s use of the term “Sofia Coppola feminism,” however, should be addressed to Blackamazon. Or, if your problem is more with Donna’s endorsement of BA’s use of the term, with Donna. Or with both.

But I have to side with Kai here: This is going into “I get what you’re saying but I hate how you said it” territory, which nearly universally guarantees a derail. It’d be different if “Sofia Coppola feminism” constituted some sort of hate speech; I don’t mind derails into how-you-said-it land when hate speech is involved, but I don’t think it is here.

I’m not entirely sorry we got on this track. It was interesting to know more about Coppola’s filmmaking, which I admit I’m not familiar with (I think I tried to watch Lost in Translation once, but it put me to sleep), and I also had no idea whether she identified as a feminist or not. If she doesn’t, then I agree “David Lynch feminism” makes about as much sense. But you can’t know for sure why Blackamazon chose Sophia Coppola instead of David Lynch without asking her for clarification, so that’s probably your best bet.

Mnem continues to whine. I mean racism and classism? Just random tearing women down!


But you can’t know for sure why Blackamazon chose Sophia Coppola instead of David Lynch without asking her for clarification, so that’s probably your best bet.

From her post, she seems to have chosen her because Sofia Coppola is a privileged white woman who makes movies about privileged white women, which sets off all kinds of red flags about the concerns of white women being set up as more important than those of minority and lower-class women.

It struck me as yet another example of women tearing each other down because they’re not “pure” enough feminists, which is why it came to mind in this particular thread. It came across along the lines of, “If she isn’t making movies that talk about my particular concerns, she shouldn’t be making movies at all.”

But, yes, sorry for the threadjack. Ranting is done.